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Public Option Is Not A Mysterious Thing

October 15, 2009 C-SPAN

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14 Comments

Current View: 15 / Show all Comments

generic_imitation : LVL 38: VP 4.6: said:

generic_imitation

6 votes NegativePositive

35 days 16 hours ago...

Perfectly explained 5/5

Chuckus : LVL 37: VP 4.5: said:

Chuckus

7 votes NegativePositive

35 days 16 hours ago...

Yes. But that doesnt` answer the question of OBama`s socialist underground Islamic/communist/nazi army over at Acorn that flew the planes into the twin towers at the Order of Bill Ayers.

He`s fighting illogical stupidity with facts. How do you enlighten a population willing to believe absolute shit.

NickAngel : LVL 36: VP 4.4: said:2007 Winner

NickAngel

2 votes NegativePositive

35 days 16 hours ago...

Finally. It just goes to show you how much bullshit is being pushed in your face.

Nose Nuggets : LVL 15: VP 2.4: said:

Nose Nuggets

1 votes NegativePositive

35 days 5 hours ago...

These are all great facts, and very well put. i like this guys enthuiams, its rarely seen among the congress.

that being said, there are a few questions i have.


Its great that most of the people who are on Medicare like it. But, is it shocking that people who get free health care like it? not really. but what this guy never says is that the current Medicare system is unsustainable with just the limited people currently in it. the system is essentially broke. it spends more then it takes in each year, so its always in deficit. now, this isent immediately a large issue as its a government run service, so the deficit is simply made up with tax dollars. like the post office, which is some 9 billion in debt for fiscal 09. with the deficit medicare ran through 2008, their entire reserve fund will be empty by 2017. this is with more and more baby boomers becoming eligible every day. dont get me wrong, free health care for everyone sounds great. but i have not heard a single politician explain how they are going to pay for it. they just keep making the assumption that medicare works, because people like it.

is this constitutional? maybe it dosent even matter anymore if we follow the document that every elected official takes an oath to uphold. and maybe people are okay with that. i mean, most people sat idly by while the patriot act was passed out of fear. maybe this is okay for the same reason?

do we really have a free market heath care system right now? i mean, it sort of masquerades as such, but with the government already subsidizing large insurance companies with tax dollars (which goes towards their profits) and passing legislation to help them keep the market cornered, and giving the citizens less choices, can we really say its free market? i mean, i cant buy insurance from a company outside of California, even if i wanted too. that dosent sound very free market to me.

it would seem to me, that stopping all the government payments in subsidies and tax cuts to larger insurance companies would make it easier for new companies to get their foot in the door, making more competition.

truth-is-the-nemesis : LVL 39: VP 4.7: said:

truth-is-the-nemesis

3 votes NegativePositive

34 days 23 hours ago...

Nose Nuggets :

medicare works not just because people like it, but because it is 30% less than what the free market is advocating. (how are seniors who are retired going to afford healthcare when the cost keeps skyrocketing & people keep getting dropped from the system).

thats why i`d say they `like it` not just because its `free` but because it unburdens them of alot of these issue`s.

your arguments seems to be `how are we going to sustain the longevity of medicare` well i`d have to answer that question with another, `how long would it have been sustained for on our current free market system at a 30% higher rate?`.

how you can portray the need of healthcare reform to the patriot act is just beyond me, although the right is using alot of fear-mongering!!!.

less choices in the free market of healthcare because of reform? you do know that as it stands now overall 94% of the market in america is not competitive (source: American Medical Association).

so even if you do cross state-lines it would be doubtful of any real change of outcome.

& i highly doubt the insurance companies are very concerned over a change in healthcare taxes, especially when they`re spending 1.4million each-day to defeat the public-option.

even if we take your advice of state options & tax breaks how will that influence people who can`t get healthcare because of a pre-existing condition, or people who are unable to pay the costs due to say losing their job in the recession?.

Nefio : LVL 26: VP 3.5: said:

Nefio

0 votes NegativePositive

34 days 8 hours ago...

Why does medicare operate at a deficit while insurance doesn`t?

Because insurance companies dont really insure the elderly. They also try to deny high risk individuals by either requiring ridiculous payments for the risk, or flatly refusing for pre-existing conditions. Insurance companies make money by following a model that essentially denies or excludes as many people who really need it as possible, and playing off the fears of everyone who doesn`t. It is technically win/win, you`re paying for the peace of mind that if tragedy does strike you`ll be safe. But why does a private company have to do that, and make a 30% overhead? Isn`t protecting us and keeping us safe the entire purpose of government anyway? Health care seems like the perfect place for government to come in and say "you know at some point everyone needs this, so we`re all going to pay into the system to keep each other healthy". Its the exact same thing insurance companies do anyway only they DONT sit and turn people away because of age or risk.

Nose Nuggets : LVL 15: VP 2.4: said:

Nose Nuggets

0 votes NegativePositive

32 days 6 hours ago...

truth-is-the-nemesis:

Let me start by saying that health care does need reform. i wont ever debate that fact. i would not suggest that keeping things as they are could in any way be considered logical, or advisable.

That being said, there is no feasible solution for people such as your senior citizens strapped for cash in any of the provided solutions. The real solution to that is by reducing the cost of care, not making insurance cheaper. and i think this is a fundamental flaw with a lot of the arguments people are making. your looking at this all wrong. you think the solution is making insurance cheaper when what you need to do is make the care cheaper. you see, the medical industry is the only industry where costs dont drop as technology increases. this is not some mystical exception to the rule this is planned and maintained. Besides, calling medical insurance insurance is a gross misnomer. if we likened medical insurance to car insurance you would be going to geico for oil changes and fuel fill ups. what we have here in America right now is pre-paid medical care. insurance suggests there is a risk balancing in effect; currently there is not.

One of the greatest problems with the medicare system now is eluded to in your very statement. what about all the very wealthy and well off seniors who get free medicare that could easily afford their own? society says they `deserve` it because they paid into the system and they now get to reap the benefits. but wheres my hand shake and pat on the back from society? all the money i pore into the system wont garnish any services for me by the time i qualify. this is one more reason in the myriad of government inadequacy.

Nose Nuggets : LVL 15: VP 2.4: said:

Nose Nuggets

0 votes NegativePositive

32 days 6 hours ago...

You keep coming back to this 30% profit margin number as reference or to infer in matter it has no bearing in. If the insurance companies could be making a 90% profit margin and still providing a service that kept them in business, it would be fine. the profits these companies make should be entirely irrelevant. the reason they are NOT irrelevant right now is because a free market does NOT exist to provide a balance. these few insurance companies have a monopoly on the industry and everyone is forced to pay for their service. this is the only reason why the profits matter. if they had a 90% profit margin but everyone paid 5% of their income on health insurance no one would give a shit. they would be providing a service at a market friendly price. if they got greedy and wanted more money and profit and raised their rates they would lose clients to competitors. that dosent happen right now. because there are no competitors.

your last point is two separate questions.

forcing an insurance company to take clients with pre existing conditions is stupid at the least and imorral at worst. if you had the same laws for car insurance, i could go out, crash my car into a telephone pole, then call geico and get insurance, then get a free payout. does that sound logical? or even sustainable to you? as i said before, the problem is NOT insurance. its the cost of care. the cost of care is high because the insurance companies and providers are in cahoots with one another to keep prices high. see my opening remarks.

People being out of work because of our failing economy is the way it is. i would love to discuss the economy with you as well if you would like but all reasons aside it is what it is. we dont provide free food, or clothing, or housing for these people either so saying they are entitled to free health care is preposterous. now, back in the 60`s and 70`s there where a lot more church run clinics and things of that nature that provided health services to the homeless, but most of those are gone because the middle class in general has been sucked dry over the last decades dont have disposable income to help their communities. they are paying outrageous food and health care costs.

Nose Nuggets : LVL 15: VP 2.4: said:

Nose Nuggets

0 votes NegativePositive

32 days 6 hours ago...

you need to de-regulate insurance and let more companies in. you need stricter mal pratice suit laws so doctors dont have to spend insane money on mal practice insurance. you need people to have many more, cross state line purchasing options. you need to promote medical savings accounts and not rely on insurance. you need to modify the tax code so individuals can get the same savings that businesses do. you need more clinics to take basic health services out of expensive hospitals and force more competition. why is it odd to think about walking into a local clinic and saying "why do you guys charge $200 for a battery of blood tests when clinic X over on 3rd street only charges $150? if you guys do it for $150 you will keep my business otherwise im going to the other guys." people right not dont even think to ask the fucking price. its not even a concern. why? BECAUSE THE WAY YOU THINK ABOUT AND USE INSURANCE. THATS WHY.

truth-is-the-nemesis : LVL 39: VP 4.7: said:

truth-is-the-nemesis

1 votes NegativePositive

32 days 2 hours ago...

^
i keep hearing the cross state line purchasing from the opposing viewpoint, who WANTS to go to the next state for insurance? how is that convenience?. (and as you`ll see below its coming from the same place, just with a different name).

& how are they going to get better healthcare out of state when free healthcare isn`t even allowed in?

RAM (Remote Area Medical, denied access to cross state line`s to give healthcare to the needy)

Percent Increase in Premiums vs Income

Average U.S. Premium Growth 120%

Average U.S .Wage Growth 29%

is your plan going to bring the healthcare premuim costs down 99%?.

the biggest insurer holds 89 percent of the statewide market, the highest rate in the nation for a single company. More populous states have serious market concentration problems as well. Virginia’s largest health insurer controls a 50 percent share of the statewide market.

truth-is-the-nemesis : LVL 39: VP 4.7: said:

truth-is-the-nemesis

1 votes NegativePositive

32 days 2 hours ago...

At the local level, where distinct provider markets exist in metropolitan areas, the health insurance industry’s market concentration is even more severe.

The U.S. Justice Department considers a market “highly concentrated” if one company holds more than a 42 percent share of that market, a level that is common in Virginia and more than 30 other states. In Abilene, Texas, for example, the top insurer controls 85 percent of the market.

10 In Bangor, Maine, the biggest insurer controls 74 percent of the market.

The market leader in the Battle Creek, Michigan, area
holds 83 percent, and 57 percent of the Lincoln, Nebraska, market is served by a lone insurer.

Americans are paying for this unchecked private
insurance industry consolidation in the form of higher health premiums and a growing number of uninsured people.

Meanwhile, insurance company profits and compensation
for the industry’s top executives are surging, and the industry invests more in rewarding its shareholders than it does in ensuring good health outcomes for people with costly conditions. In several recent reports, leading experts on the American health care system have detailed how the injection of a robust new
public health insurance plan as a competitor for private plans would expand choice for individuals and business and drive competition on price and quality in local markets across the country.

Nose Nuggets : LVL 15: VP 2.4: said:

Nose Nuggets

0 votes NegativePositive

31 days 10 hours ago...

so you just spent two posts backing up almost everything i said.

how can you say we have a free market health care system and it has failed? why would you be against deregulation?

if insurance worked the way it was supposed too you would buy a plan for serious shit only. prescriptions, doctors visits, checkups, blood/lab work, physicals, cuts, scraps, broken bones, would all be paid for out of pocket by the individual for a reasonable price. right now, because insurance companies are immune to anti-trust laws, can legally set prices with doctors and hospitals. the heaps of regulation and favors that benefit these large companies with 50% state market share makes it impossible for start ups to come in and create a competitive market. we need LESS government, not more. the governments laws are what created this fucking fiasco in the first place.

and for the record, you dont need to drive to another state to purchase something. if it was legal, you could just pick up the phone and purchase an insurance plan.

truth-is-the-nemesis : LVL 39: VP 4.7: said:

truth-is-the-nemesis

1 votes NegativePositive

31 days 10 hours ago...

^
it`s interesting how i just `backed up` everything you said, yet you still somehow manage to come to a different conclusion to the experts in the field who recently compiled the AMA national report & say a public option would be the best way to lower prices & cover all the people that the current heealthcare system rejects.

the so-called free market system of amnerican healthcare is not competitive at all, due to it being a monopoly in most states & therefore doesn`t have to offer whats best for the customer.

why be against deregulation? well i worked REALLY well for the banking industry didn`t it, soo what could possibility go wrong?.

"if insurance worked the way it was supposed too" - you mean not for profit (kinda like everywhere else in the world?).

"we need LESS government" what do you wanna get rid of first the military & their bad government healthcare?.

Nose Nuggets : LVL 15: VP 2.4: said:

Nose Nuggets

1 votes NegativePositive

31 days 8 hours ago...

fuck your so called experts. Ben Bernanke is a so called expert. i dont need someone to explain why my broke as fuck country cant afford health care for 47 million people. or its constitutionality. all i need to do is look at history. besides, why would i want to listen to any damn thing the group that railed on about the health benefits of cigarettes during the forties?

"the so-called free market system of American health care is not competitive at all, due to it being a monopoly in most states & therefore doesn`t have to offer whats best for the customer."

YES! The question is HOW did it get this way, and what can we do to reverse it. the answer is NOT get the government more involved.

LOL, deregulation of the banking industry had almost zero to do with the financial situation we find our selves in. The cause of our economic strife is cheap money from the federal reserve that banks and hedge funds gambled on the housing and derivatives markets. do you believe everything you see on CNN?

insurance is a fucking business. its supposed to make money. i think its hilarious that you pull that segment of my statement out but dont bother to comment on
"if they had a 90% profit margin but everyone paid 5% of their income on health insurance no one would give a shit."

if it was up to me i would reduce our military. i would bring every American troop on foreign soil home and save us a couple hundred billion a year. then with all the extra money who knows what possibilities would be available.

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