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Noam Chomsky on Health Care

Talking at the Orpheum Theater.

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15 Comments

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Chuckus : LVL 37: VP 4.5: said:

Chuckus

5 votes NegativePositive

69 days 21 hours ago...

I`m not sure whether to be happy that someone is able to vocalize what I`ve been thinking for so long or to be depressed by the implications of what he`s saying.

I know that democracy is currently at an all time low right now because of the polarization between left and right, yet the picture he paints in that clip just drives that point home.

exploder : LVL 50: VP 5: said:

exploder

1 votes NegativePositive

69 days 19 hours ago...

^ Yeah, welcome to North America, where votes are of less use than asswipe.

Vote Now! More chances to lose than the lottery!

Pot is another good example. Here in Canada at least, over 70% of us want pot legalized, for decades. Our own government (us) paid for the Le Dain Commission, which recommended either legalizing it outright, or decriminalizing personal possession. Have our government, our dear elected leaders, ever given a rats fat ass? Don`t even bother.

It`s simple really, DELEGATING POWER FAILS.

Do you really think ANYONE is ever going to vote in anything but their own interest? Especially rich fucks who stand to make millions by selling the public down the river?

We get power when THE PUBLIC DECIDES, when we get to vote on shit directly. NOT vote in a small handfull of lying sack-o-shit duechebag politicians, who auction us like sheep to their big business cronies (golf buddies, future business partners, future employers).

Two ways out, since they ain`t re-writing the rules for us:

1. Tax revolt.

2. Armed revolt.

Act or baaaaaah baaaaah.

Eat the rich.

nerdicus : LVL 34: VP 4.2: said:

nerdicus

6 votes NegativePositive

69 days 10 hours ago...

Any system that uses Profit over People as it`s main ethos, is bound to have a system that rules in favour of money and not mankind.

dude_from_detroit : LVL 30: VP 3.9: said:

dude_from_detroit

-1 votes NegativePositive

69 days 8 hours ago...

noam chomsky: "if 911 was an inside job, I just don`t care"

Venomousvole : LVL 39: VP 4.7: said:

Venomousvole

-2 votes NegativePositive

69 days 4 hours ago...

^ beautifull! "if" it was an inside job, the steps to prevent a repeat are identical to what you do if it wasn`t.

Nose Nuggets : LVL 15: VP 2.4: said:

Nose Nuggets

0 votes NegativePositive

69 days 4 hours ago...

Great theory, but this is America. We are not a democracy. Majority does not rule. The Constitution has given the federal government no power to do anything health care related. Sorry; for better or worse, that`s the way it is.


Medicare is not broken because it has to "work through the privatized system," its because it has set prices that are far lower then a lot of doctors want to get paid for their hard work. Which is why so many doctors don`t take it at all. And, like Social Security, its a ponzy scheme; the money current working people pay into the system goes right back out. there is no trust, no fund, no investment whereby proceedes can be used to pay for services why the initial investment creates more spendable money. its pay as you go, just like Madoff`s scheme.

Omeko : LVL 40: VP 4.8: said:

Omeko

-3 votes NegativePositive

68 days 21 hours ago...

Americans are great.
Because of their stupidity,
other countries look great.
Thank You America...
Now go fuck yaself.

Rekon : LVL 32: VP 4.1: said:

Rekon

5 votes NegativePositive

68 days 5 hours ago...

Bravo Noam! You explained what some cannot(or fear to) grasp.

Nose nuggets-
Simply put; your wrong. But its obviouse you know more then most your compatriots. Im australian and we have `Medicare` too. This is levied from general taxation and its budget is not isolated, so it does not suffer from the problem you mentioned. However, I currently live in France(Alfortville, just outside Paris) which DOES suffer from the problem you mentioned...but the healthcover is blooming excellent!

It just depends on how its set up you see. Here an extract from Wiki:
(ps - like a ponzy sceme? c`mon man dont throw around terms like that. I suppose you think Obama is like Hitler too?)

"Among countries with significant public funding of health care there are many different approaches exist to the funding and provision of medical services. Systems may be funded from general government revenues (as in the United Kingdom and Canada), or through a government social security system (as in France, Belgium, Japan, and Germany) with a separate budget and hypothecated taxes. The proportion of the cost of care covered also differs: in Canada, all hospital care is paid for by the government, while in Japan patients must pay 10 to 30% of the cost of a hospital stay. Services provided by public systems vary. For example, the Belgian government pays the bulk of the fees for dental and eye care, while the Australian government covers only eye care."

"Publicly funded medicine may be administered and provided by the government, as in the United Kingdom; in some systems, though, medicine is publicly funded but most health providers are private entities, as in Canada.
(*)The organization providing public health insurance is not necessarily a public administration, and its budget may be isolated from the main state budget.(*)
Some systems do not provide universal healthcare, or restrict coverage to public health facilities. Some countries, such as Germany, have multiple public insurance organizations linked by a common legal framework. Some, like Holland, allow private for-profit insurers to participate."

Nose Nuggets : LVL 15: VP 2.4: said:

Nose Nuggets

0 votes NegativePositive

68 days 4 hours ago...

Rekon, ill take your points in order.

Comparing the proposed health care reform and current health care system to Australia or Canada or most other countries is a tough apples to apples comparison to sell. Your entire home country has less people then my state (California). You also don`t have the soul crushing debt we have (as a state or nation). But, to even make the claim that it works is incorrect. Most hospitals in Australia have one or more of the same problems you see in countries with similar plans; struggling to pay their bills, short on beds, or short on staff.

Just like with Medicare here, saying the system is great for those who receive the services is an irrelevant portion of the "does it work" discussion. If its unsustainable and broke, its really of no consequence if people like the service or not, right?

I use the term ponzy scheme not to re-hash buzz words or conjure an emotion; i use it because its the best and clearest description for it. A ponzy scheme is a plan whereby investors are paid by the investments of new clients and not gains from that individuals original investment. i think we can all agree on that. Social Security is precisely that. it was not designed or marketed as such in its inception but it is openly agreed that it is no longer the service it was intended to be. the original idea was a trust or fund would be started with the money from those paying in and the gains from those investments would be paid out to those who qualified (over 65). It is now openly accepted that social security has become a "pay as you go" system (wiki PAYGO). There is no true fund, no true trust where profits are garnished from investment. the receivers of social security monies are paid directly from those currently paying into the system. almost the precise definition of a ponzy scheme. its entirely unsustainable.

i don`t think obama is hitler, but to be more precise i couldn`t give two shits if he was as this is a Republic, not a democracy. unlike many here i have no political affiliation. i call myself neither democrat or republican. i am a true political atheist. now, my preference towards certain media outlets or people in the political arena is merely due to my agreement with that individuals position on particular subjects. For example, as far as the constitution is concerned im quite conservative. as far as prostitution and substance use is concerned im rather liberal.

Continues...

Nose Nuggets : LVL 15: VP 2.4: said:

Nose Nuggets

1 votes NegativePositive

68 days 4 hours ago...

Your quotes are misleading. Your first quoted paragraph states "systems may be funded from general government revenues" which gives this illusion that governments "make" money. they do not. Governments take money. governments have no institutions that create wealth. true they have the ability to make `money`, but money is not wealth. so, by that very function the only thing the government can do is move money/wealth/capitol around. to move money to health care it has to take it from someplace else, which is inherently wrong and immoral. for better or worse, the road to hell is paved with good intentions.

All of this, however, is merely academic you see. The single most important -yet oddly least discussed- aspect of this entire discussion is the constitutionality of the entire prospect. i will be the first to admit i know absolutely nothing about the existence of any constitutions of the countries you mentioned; but here, in the United States, we have a very practical and gloriously succinct constitution. its a mere 4500 words. And in all its form and glory it spells out precisely what the Federal Government can do, and quite clearly states that everything not SPECIFICALLY granted to it, is reserved for the states or the people themselves. i am happy to say, it makes no mention of health care, doctors, or anything of the sort.

Chuckus : LVL 37: VP 4.5: said:

Chuckus

0 votes NegativePositive

66 days 20 hours ago...

^^
"by that very function the only thing the government can do is move money/wealth/capitol around. to move money to health care it has to take it from someplace else, which is inherently wrong and immoral."

By that logic it`s inherently immoral to buy your family food.Governments collect taxes. They don`t just take your money. You don`t like the taxes vote your president out. The rest of the country disagrees with you then move out. It`s not right or wrong it`s called civilization. If you want NO government intervention than go live in a cave with no modern amenities. Civilization requires cooperation. a government is a formal organization that allows for greater cooperation at the risk of corruption and abuse. That`s true of all power centers. The question becomes should people be left to die on their own or should the collective work together to save each other.

If you believe in the latter government intervention is the most efficient way to do it. it`s not perfectly efficient but the moment you form an organizational structure to help manage complex affairs, you have effectively made a government.

Nose Nuggets : LVL 15: VP 2.4: said:

Nose Nuggets

1 votes NegativePositive

66 days 10 hours ago...

^
I would prefer to live by the Constitution this country was founded on, thank you very much. It has very clear instructions regarding taxation and the size and scope of government.

If a government collected taxes, it would not be mandatory. As it stands, if you don`t give your taxes they put you in prison, that`s taking tax by threat of incarceration. Taxes are also not synonymous with "civilization." We had no income tax before 1913.

I feel the way the founders of this nation felt; that any service the people wanted could be better and more effectively be delivered, for less money, by the free market then it could be by government. If you look at the history of government provided service, the founders would appear to be correct.

Rekon : LVL 32: VP 4.1: said:

Rekon

2 votes NegativePositive

66 days 5 hours ago...

Nose Nuggets
You sir are will written. I cannot claim to know more then you about your country as I am not of it, so I leave it there.

Regarding the division and use of money though I have to say this: I resent you description of healthcare(And social security) as a Ponzy scheme because the people all agree to the use of their money to support these systems - its a choice for the wellbeing of the nation.
A Ponzy scheme exist only to defraud the contributers and benefit one person or group: it is criminal in nature. Would the investors and victims of Madoff`s investment service have agreed if they knew the truth?
Of course funds are consumed in running these institutions, but they are also refreshed, so there will always be new dutiful tax-paying citizens to pay for those retiring before them.

After all, you wouldn`t decide against having children because you believed it was to only benifit youself.

Nose Nuggets : LVL 15: VP 2.4: said:

Nose Nuggets

-1 votes NegativePositive

66 days 3 hours ago...

well lets call a spade a spade here. Just because the people like a service or system does not mean it is or is not a ponzy scheme. a ponzy scheme is a ponzy scheme is a ponzy scheme. weather its rainbow colored or not makes no difference. but to clarify, i did not say health care is a ponzy scheme. i said medicare and social security are. and they are, by definition. a ponzy scheme is not defined by who benefits its defined by the method in which money is handled. if maddoff made no money his system would still be a ponzy scheme by the function of how he paid off past investors with new invetors investment funds.

secondly, to say the people support these systems is a ludicrous notion. If i was given the option to opt out of social sucurity; meaning i did not pay in and consequently received no benafits once reaching legal age, i would do so in an instant. Many like minded friends and pretty much any libertarian you meet would probably do the same. its also not a choice, if i dont pay it i go to prison. the reason i would opt out is because i feel i could better invest my own money then some politicians in Washington. if history is any indication, i would be correct in that assumption.

The problem with your refreshment theory is
A) there is no guarantee that there will be more new empoyed citizens to pay for those who qualify for benefits. This is currently exacerbated as our unemployment is bordering on 17%. we have been losing a steady 160,000 to 250,000 jobs a month over the last 12 months.
B) The average life span is not 70 years of age like it was at the creation of the plan. instead of claiming benefits for ~5 years they claim them for ~15 years now.
My generation is strapped with an even larger burdon as the generation known as baby boomers -a generation known almost specifically for their large numbers- are all now qualifying for these services.

i don`t understand your having children analogy, for which i apologize.

Rekon : LVL 32: VP 4.1: said:

Rekon

2 votes NegativePositive

64 days 12 hours ago...

whoops for the triple post.
you`ve made many good points but I think I`ll draw an end here as I`m unable to discuss this without detailed research into American welfare/politics and the such.
As for the analogy, well it was flawed because it should have read `you wouldn`t decide against having children because you believed it was to only benefit *someone else*` the point being that a working welfare and healthcare(yes, I know you speak of medicare) benefits society as a whole.
Thanks for the discussion, nice to exchange with someone as thoughtful and well written as yourself(though I haven`t figured out if your politeness is sincere or just passive aggressive...im going for polite:) be well.

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