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Statistical Reasons For Healthcare Refor...

Explore the OECD and Dartmouth Atlas data with our tutorial, from 'new scientist'.

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15 Comments

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sato : LVL 31: VP 4: said:

sato

33 votes NegativePositive

206 days 1 hour ago...

with all the opinions floating around it`s about time people were shown some plain facts, nice one.

DoctorRandomercam : LVL 41: VP 4.9: said:

DoctorRandomercam

29 votes NegativePositive

205 days 1 hour ago...

^ But is the average American mind capable of distinguishing the difference?

Dirt Digger : LVL 44: VP 5: said:

Dirt Digger

9 votes NegativePositive

204 days 17 hours ago...

The US has a huge battle ahead if any reform is going to take place. There are simply too many people in high places (politicians, doctors, drug companies, stock holders, etc) that are making money hand over fist and have a vested interest in maintaining the status quo.

They already have the ability to afford the best care...why should they allow things to change? So that other people can make them wait longer for a hip replacement? Cancer treatment?

Health care should be about treatment...not profit...and I wonder if the system is too far gone to fix. Great post titn.

Glitchen : LVL 38: VP 4.6: said:

Glitchen

18 votes NegativePositive

203 days 15 hours ago...

"But is the average American mind capable of distinguishing the difference?"

That is one of the dangers of not holding media producers accountable for false information. They make it sound like the false information/data holds equal validity to an argument. (Exp: choose A or B, but B has no scientific backing while A is supported by a majority of experts.)

If you state something as FACT on a "News" channel, you should be held accountable for propagating false information. Fines or a editors note that admits that "X" information was wrong.

And then Fox News comes off the air.

Nose Nuggets : LVL 14: VP 2.3: said:

Nose Nuggets

1 votes NegativePositive

203 days 14 hours ago...

He is right in that currently we `over-medicate` or prescribe unnecessary tests. However he doesn`t say WHY we do this. This happens because Doctors have to please the insurance companies, not the patients. The patents doesn`t care about the cost, in fact the cost isn`t even discussed. More tests by the doctor = more money for the hospital.

So essentially, when you walk into a hospital right now, you have a giant $ over your head that says "find ways to make me spend money."

Conversely, with a government run health care system, when you walk into a hospital you have a set dollar amount of your head that says "You can spend this much on this patient."

its not as simple and clean cut as all that but it gets you thinking on the right track. When health care is "free" people over-use it. All of Canada has less people then just California and their list of people waiting for specialist surgeries is already over 850,000 people long. Most might not need it, but some will die waiting.

wallaceff : LVL 22: VP 3.1: said:

wallaceff

1 votes NegativePositive

203 days 13 hours ago...

From the medical professional side of things, this video was interesting, and while I`m not doubting that we order some `unnecessary` tests sometimes (and that there are some that do so more than others), I think it is very easy to show a graph of what someone says is `unnecessary tests` when, medicine is still somewhat of an art, its not all science, and that the clinicians skill in deciding individualised treatment will can always be viewed retrospectively as being unnecessary by others.
How about a graph showing mal-practise payouts/lawsuits against spending? I have an inclincing that doctors in those cities would be spending more money on more tests when the risk of a lawsuit is higher/higher payouts. You can`t have medical reform without legal reform... and don`t think for a minute that the lawyers want a potential source of revenue to dry up.

truth-is-the-nemesis : LVL 39: VP 4.7: said:

truth-is-the-nemesis

7 votes NegativePositive

203 days 11 hours ago...

^Nose Nuggets

do you know for what type of specialist surgeries the 850,000 people are waiting for?.

even countries that have a universial system of healthcare have long waiting lists for certain treatments, it does not mean the `system` is flawed it just means those types of operations & Ailments have there own pre-set issue`s E.g. organ replacement surgeries when most people deny to become donors or a general shortage of people that meet your genetic match.

sadly people die in waiting lists no-matter what the system.

the total of 850,000 that you mentioned equates to 15% of canada`s total population of 33,756,806 (source - www.statcan.gc.ca).

which may sound substantial, but after considering what general percentage that would get these types of ailments to begin with & the above inherent complications its no wonder there are waiting lists.

15% sounds less supportive to your case than stating canada is less populated than california, which is true, but with california`s total population of 36,756,666 (source - www.google.com/publicdata) thats only a difference of 0.011%. (hardly even worth mentioning).

Waiting List Statistics (California) "Transplants"

Patients on UNOS Waiting List as of "February 2007" Type of Transplant Patients Waiting for Transplant
Kidney 73,820
Liver 17,464
Pancreas 1,771
Kidney-Pancreas 2,446
Intestine 240
Heart 2,869
Heart-Lung 135
Lung 2,889
TOTALS Total Patients:
101,634

Average Cost of a Transplant National Cost Range Average Cost
Kidney $25,000 - 130,000 $51,000
Pancreas $51,000 - 135,000 $70,000
Liver $66,000 - 367,000 $235,000
Heart $50,000 - 287,000 $148,000
Heart/Lung $135,000 - 250,000 $210,000

source - http://www.ctdn.org/resources_public.php#Statistics

Question - if you were denied healthcare, could you afford $66,000 for a new liver?, and then there`s the anti-rejection drugs as well which wouldn`t come cheap (& if they weren`t covered your screwed).

& remember these stats are from "February 2007" & Each month, approximately 500 people in the United States are added to the national waiting list. (so the claim that CANADA is SOO MUCH WORSE, Needs to be re-evaluated.

Danielnator : LVL 42: VP 5: said:

Danielnator

2 votes NegativePositive

203 days 11 hours ago...

The problem here is that logic and facts arent usually considered in America when discussing any issue. In this case particularly to convince everyone that a reform is really needed you need to say things like "Jesus wants you to have a health care reform" and "God hates the current health care system(or lack thereof)".

d1dgreat1 : LVL 40: VP 4.8: said:

d1dgreat1

0 votes NegativePositive

203 days 10 hours ago...

Good points, We all need need to sit down and discuss this issue.

elcidcampeon : LVL 52: VP 5: said:

elcidcampeon

3 votes NegativePositive

203 days 10 hours ago...

wth, I uploaded this yesterday?!

Nose Nuggets : LVL 14: VP 2.3: said:

Nose Nuggets

0 votes NegativePositive

203 days 9 hours ago...

truth-is-the-nemesis:

Thanks for the comment. I did find that my initial statement was false. The list of 850,000 is NOT for specialist surgeries its just a general waiting list for all types of services such as CT/CAT scans and other such tests/procedures that require either medical staff or medical devices that are in limited supply. it does not however include patients on an organ waiting list which are categorized entirely separately. However, i am sure individuals who are on the organ waiting list are probably also on the list for these tests/procedures. Another similar fact is that in some areas of Canada they have had to resort to a raffle for families seeking a family doctor as the supply of such individuals is quite low. im sure this has geographical significance -rural areas vs. cities- although that hardly warrants comfort.

I think the fact that all of Canada has fewer people then just California is a very huge factor when debating the ability of the government to deliver health services when you like to use Canada as a Pro argument. The percentage difference between those two populations, however, is very insignificant.

"Question - if you were denied healthcare, could you afford $66,000 for a new liver?, and then there`s the anti-rejection drugs as well which wouldn`t come cheap (& if they weren`t covered your screwed)."
Many would not be able to. but that`s somewhat of an irrelevant argument. The amount of American citizens without health care who want health care is slim. The 47 million number that keeps getting thrown around includes illegal aliens and people who are actively choosing not to have health care. The amount of people who want it but cant afford it are slim. Dont skew this and think that my position is out current system works. it does not, and is far too expensive. just because people CAN afford i does not mean its a cost effective service. But, your hypothetical is a fine example of what insurance is for. What insurance is NOT for is routine medical care and prescription drugs. Likening current health insurance to auto insurance would have you going to Geico for oil changes and gas fillups. This is not insurance, its pre-paid medical care.

MasterPlanz : LVL 33: VP 4.2: said:

MasterPlanz

4 votes NegativePositive

203 days 9 hours ago...

Spending twice as much for something worse - it`s the American way!

OmegaVader : LVL 39: VP 4.7: said:

OmegaVader

1 votes NegativePositive

203 days 8 hours ago...

now why can`t we use this kind of argument to get Congress moving already? Fuck the death panel and libertarian bullshit. Get shit done!

POOEYO : LVL 34: VP 4.2: said:

POOEYO

2 votes NegativePositive

203 days 8 hours ago...

"With a government run health care system, when you walk into a hospital you have a set dollar amount of your head that says `You can spend this much on this patient.`"

Kind of... but this only comes into play in extreme cases, such as people on long term life support - and even then the decision to turn off the life support is primarily based on the likelihood of recovery, not cost.

At the end of the day, in a government run health care system, it is ultimately in the governments best interest to give you the patient the best quality, best value and most effective treatment, because the dollar sign over everybody`s head also represents their contribution towards GDP (as well as close family members who may have to reduce their working hours to care for sick loved ones) - after all, a healthy person is a more productive person... insurance companies on the other hand are profit making organisations and your level of productivity in the workplace, to them, is almost totally irrelevant.

truth-is-the-nemesis : LVL 39: VP 4.7: said:

truth-is-the-nemesis

1 votes NegativePositive

203 days 8 hours ago...

^Nose Nuggets :

illegals will not be covered by Obama`s plan.

Waiting Lists in Canada:
All of this, of course, makes the important assumption that significant waiting lists in
Canada exist in the first place. Those who oppose the Canadian single-payer system, including
the American health insurance industry, have long used long waiting lists as an argument against
single-payer health insurance, citing anecdotal evidence, various surveys, and media reports.
Despite this, an objective look at the issue reveals that the evidence for waiting lists is
inconclusive. Indeed, while waiting lists certainly do exist for certain non-emergent
procedures, it is not at all clear that the "waiting list crisis" that is so often talked about by
the media and opponents of single payer actually exists.

The lack of good Canadian data on waiting lists-
Recently, waiting list data has been monitored and published online by some of the
Canadian provincial governments.

British Columbia Ministry of Health
Alberta Ministry of Health and Wellness
Saskatchewan Surgical Care Network
Manitoba Ministry of Health
Cardiac Care Network of Ontario
Cancer Care Ontario

(Continue)-

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