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Scientific Evidence for God? (1/2) - The...

Part 2
A student of theoretical physics calls in with her `proof` of a god.

  • Jonas22
  • posted by Jonas22
  • Date 5/14/2009 2:27:34 PM
  • Views: 3289
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15 Comments

Current View: 15 / Show all Comments

delt_osvp : LVL 47: VP 5: said:

delt_osvp

1 votes NegativePositive

195 days 20 hours ago...

just found out this is a recent show, I always thought they where from the 90`s because of the shotty cam

Domagos : LVL 20: VP 2.9: said:

Domagos

18 votes NegativePositive

195 days 20 hours ago...

^You could figure out "laws" while believing a higher intelligence created them, but it doesn`t give proper evidence to the theory of a higher power.
Also, back then religion and science were pretty much one because they were both about figuring out the world and the universe. Eventually, once the masses of logical thinking started to find holes in their own belief system, the two separated.

Nahx : LVL 35: VP 4.3: said:

Nahx

1 votes NegativePositive

195 days 20 hours ago...

lulz... caller fails...

Newtonian physics is old schoolz... rather incomplete. Darwin was a believer too... makes his (famous) book a rage builder!

sh0wtym3 : LVL 34: VP 4.2: said:

sh0wtym3

Hidden (Show Comment) -28 votes

195 days 19 hours ago...

If you don`t believe in God then I`m assuming you believe in evolution.

If you believe in evolution you believe that by chance, over time, humans evolved into what we are now.... The most complex organisms on earth, with conscious cognitive capabilities.

If there was no God and everything was random, can you explain the obvious asymmetrical design of our bodies, can you explain why we are so perfectly created with 5 senses to experience and interact with our surroundings, can you explain how DNA designs and carries out the blueprint for our bodies, and can you explain how the intricate systems of our internal organs work together to sustain life?

The earth itself has the perfect temperature, reasonable levels of oxygen and enough water to support life - at the perfect distance away from the sun. Any closer and we`d burn up, any farther and we`d freeze.

Why does the universe abide by laws of nature, orderly rules that never change? Gravity remains constant, the speed of light has always been the same, the earth rotates every 24 hours, etc etc.

I could go on and on and on, but the basic question is... How did living organisms evolve from non-living matter?

I find it WAY more far fetched to believe that we came about by chance, then to believe in a God. There is an obvious pattern and design for everything in this world.

5/5 for these Atheist Experience videos, they are making me think.

ladiesmanbj : LVL 32: VP 4.1: said:

ladiesmanbj

14 votes NegativePositive

195 days 19 hours ago...

Natural selection is the opposite of random and in what way are we perfectly created. If the earth`s ability to support a certain kind of life is proof of a creator, then are all the other planets that we know of proof that there isn`t one?

erico : LVL 40: VP 4.8: said:

erico

15 votes NegativePositive

195 days 18 hours ago...

I think by void she means big bang; however, she`s greatly confused about what it is or means. Also by listening to her she is by no way trained in any physics nor does she understand evolution. Only I guess, if by reading Scientific American that you can then call yourself a student of theoretical physics.

Big bang is something that just happened, there is proof of it but nothing which indicates how or why.

sh0wtym3,

"If there was no God and everything was random, can you explain the obvious asymmetrical design of our bodies, can you explain why we are so perfectly created with 5 senses to experience and interact with our surroundings, can you explain how DNA designs and carries out the blueprint for our bodies, and can you explain how the intricate systems of our internal organs work together to sustain life?"

Perfect? The human body is anything but perfect. I`m not knowledgeable enough to answer all your questions but if you want the real scientific evidence and someone to answer it for you go ask a biologist or evolutionary biologist. You ask these questions as if there are no answers but they have already been answered, go read a book.

"The earth itself has the perfect temperature, reasonable levels of oxygen and enough water to support life - at the perfect distance away from the sun. Any closer and we`d burn up, any farther and we`d freeze."

Exactly why we don`t live on the billions of planets which don`t have these conditions. Its not a matter of, we exist; Therefore, the conditions of our planet which sustain us are a product of our existence but rather, the conditions found on our planet have provided the conditions for our existence.

"Why does the universe abide by laws of nature, orderly rules that never change? Gravity remains constant, the speed of light has always been the same, the earth rotates every 24 hours, etc etc. "

Water is blue and plants are green, how does this prove God?

"I could go on and on and on, but the basic question is... How did living organisms evolve from non-living matter?"

Scientists are working on this and so far the knowledge is this: "Primordial soup" which contains a mixture of chemicals if left in the right condition can form amino acids -> Amino acids form proteins -> proteins form DNA -> DNA forms LIFE.

"I find it WAY more far fetched to believe that we came about by chance, then to believe in a God. There is an obvious pattern and design for everything in this world."

I find it WAY more far fetched to believe that we came from one designer than it is by chance. There isn`t an obvious pattern for design for everything in the this world. The Universe is vast and time scales immense, given such probabilities, anything can happen.

LeighCedar : LVL 39: VP 4.7: said:

LeighCedar

7 votes NegativePositive

195 days 18 hours ago...

Ladiesman and Erico beat me to it.

Shotym, there is just so much wrong with your statements. But it shows that you have just not done any of the research to your own questions.

"can you explain the obvious asymmetrical design of our bodies"

-I`m guessing that`s a typo and you don`t mean "absence of symmetry", but maybe you do. How does symmetry (or asymmetry?) deny evolution or prove a creator?

"can you explain why we are so perfectly created with 5 senses to experience and interact with our surroundings"

- Your Bias is showing in the question. It is only your opinion that we have "perfect" senses (and you slip in the word created :). Humans actually have very poor sense of smell, and our sight, while good, is not perfect. Our touch is rather limited too and we can`t feel subtle sound vibrations that lets other creatures know a predator might be coming.
Other animals have more or less than 5 senses..what makes our 5 perfect in your estimation?

"The earth itself has the perfect temperature,"

-Again, you are making a claim with no evidence to back it up. The Earth could actually be a few degrees closer or further and still support OUR TYPE of life. That does not mean, however, that other types of life in other "temperatures" can`t exist. We just happen to be the life that was possible on this particular planet, as Erico pointed out.

sh0wtym3 : LVL 34: VP 4.2: said:

sh0wtym3

Hidden (Show Comment) -11 votes

195 days 18 hours ago...

^^^

@ladiesmanbj

Understood, but the theory of Natural Selection does not answer the question of how living organisms evolved from non-living matter.

Concerning the other planets (that we know of), their inability to support life doesn`t disprove a Creator...
It simply further reinforces how perfect the earth was designed.

No other planet that we know of can support life, let alone a system this complex and amazing.

It is mind boggling to try and understand the concept of timelessness, because when we think of God we naturally ask "How can God exist... If He created everything, then who created God?"

We obviously exist in a realm governed by time. But what if the concept of time was created along with the Earth and its inhabitants? What if there is a realm outside of this one where time does not exist, there is no beginning and no end, just a constant state of eternal perpetuity.

We can`t even begin to understand or grasp this concept, and maybe we were not meant to.

I know I`m getting deep.. Just some points to make you think.

LeighCedar : LVL 39: VP 4.7: said:

LeighCedar

6 votes NegativePositive

195 days 18 hours ago...

"Why does the universe abide by laws of nature, orderly rules that never change? Gravity remains constant, the speed of light has always been the same, the earth rotates every 24 hours"

-Because the universe has no other choice. The universe is those laws.
Also the earth has not always rotated at this speed. It is slowing down ever so slowly. A couple billion years ago I believe a day on earth was about 21 hours long.

"How did living organisms evolve from non-living matter?"

This is called Abiogenesis, and is not the same as evolution. However it is supported by hypothesis and studies which you are free to look up. God is still not supported by any science or proof. Thus even if you don`t understand the science, it still doesn`t make a creator correct.

One question: If you can`t believe that life started from non life, what lets you believe that a God can just exist without a creator to start it?

sh0wtym3 : LVL 34: VP 4.2: said:

sh0wtym3

Hidden (Show Comment) -11 votes

195 days 18 hours ago...

Erico and Leigh - Not to nitpick but I really want to keep these posts as short as possible, as they can get extremely lengthy. I can`t respond to every point but I`ll pull the ones I feel I disagree with the most.


ME: "Why does the universe abide by laws of nature, orderly rules that never change? Gravity remains constant, the speed of light has always been the same, the earth rotates every 24 hours, etc etc. "

ERICO: "Water is blue and plants are green, how does this prove God?"

You cannot compare the color of plants (tangible) to the laws of nature (intangible).

But my point was simply that there are certain unseen laws that the world abides by. Evidence of a design and of a purpose.

erico : LVL 40: VP 4.8: said:

erico

5 votes NegativePositive

195 days 18 hours ago...

"Concerning the other planets (that we know of), their inability to support life doesn`t disprove a Creator...
It simply further reinforces how perfect the earth was designed."

Sorry the earth is not perfect. There are natural disasters galore which wipe out species and civilizations. Also temperature extremes and climate extremes. Sure, the fact that other planets don`t support life doesn`t disprove God`s existence but neither does it prove. In science, there is a thing called underdetermination. You should look that up if you intend to argue further.

"We obviously exist in a realm governed by time. But what if the concept of time was created along with the Earth and its inhabitants? What if there is a realm outside of this one where time does not exist, there is no beginning and no end, just a constant state of eternal perpetuity."

Any physicist can tell you space time is a product of *our* Universe and outside it neither time nor space nor matter nor energy exists.

sh0wtym3 : LVL 34: VP 4.2: said:

sh0wtym3

Hidden (Show Comment) -10 votes

195 days 17 hours ago...

Leigh: "One question: If you can`t believe that life started from non life, what lets you believe that a God can just exist without a creator to start it?"

Read the second half of my response to ladiesmanbj.

Unrelated... I`m not familiar with the theory of abiogenesis but I`ll look into it.

erico : LVL 40: VP 4.8: said:

erico

4 votes NegativePositive

195 days 17 hours ago...

"You cannot compare the color of plants (tangible) to the laws of nature (intangible)."

What I`m talking about is not tangible vs intangible. It is basic a prior knowledge that is understood by the definition of what it is. These are concrete concepts. The colour green is not tangible it is seen but it is not an object. A leaf is green but green is not a leaf. A bachelor is understood to be an unmarried man, this is an intrinsic nature of the term and by definition. Much like the speed of light is understood at 299 792 458 m/s.

God does not create bachelors, bachelors are what they are by definition, so neither did or does God create laws of nature.

LeighCedar : LVL 39: VP 4.7: said:

LeighCedar

3 votes NegativePositive

195 days 17 hours ago...

^ I did read it Shotym, I still don`t see a logical connect.

Also, your assertion that "humans evolved into what we are now.... The most complex organisms on earth, "
Is highly fallacious. We are not more complex than all other creatures, we are simply complex in different ways. Our brain is an adaption, just like an Octopus` camouflage.

Finally...again... your connection between laws of the universe and anything supernatural is a non starter. We live in a universe with laws because that is the universe we evolved in. We don`t know if there are multiple universes with different laws, or if there were universes before this where life did or didn`t evolve with similar or different conditions.

Your assumptions are based only on your own incredulity...nothing more.

Edit:
"I`m not familiar with the theory of abiogenesis but I`ll look into it."

- I`m not actually sure if Abiogenesis is far enough along in testing to be called a theory yet Shotym. Theory is reserved for the highest rung of science (ie. Gravity, Natural Selection,etc.). It might still just be a hypothesis.

sh0wtym3 : LVL 34: VP 4.2: said:

sh0wtym3

-2 votes NegativePositive

195 days 17 hours ago...

ERICO: "Sure, the fact that other planets don`t support life doesn`t disprove God`s existence but neither does it prove. In science, there is a thing called underdetermination. You should look that up if you intend to argue further."

I am familiar with the concept of underdetermination, and for this particular example there is strong undertermination. I am not saying I can positively deduct that I am completely right, but neither can I provide evidence that you are completely wrong.

Everything we are throwing at each other is theoretical, and nobody knows the real answers to life`s questions, we can only speculate.

IMO I see it more probable that the universe has a complex design, a blueprint, and that we have a purpose... Rather than random meaningless evolution from primordial soup.

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