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WW2: Russian Drive on Berlin

May 1945: The Russians push onto Berlin, Germany during World War 2. I always find old footage of this period fascinating and hope you do too. Images from Universal Newsreels. The dramatic narrator demonizing the enemy in crude blatant propaganda probably wouldn't be tried today. Oh wait ... I forgot about CNN and Fox News.

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15 Comments

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Batman! : LVL 41: VP 4.9: said:

Batman!

3 votes NegativePositive

281 days 4 hours ago...

If only they knew that the Russians would turn out to be about as bad as the Nazis, worse in some ways. They killed many times what the Nazis killed. They killed more Jews then the Nazis did. They ruled a much larger portion of the world for many times longer then the Nazis. In fact the only way the Nazis topped the Russians for pure evilness was that they systematically targeted certain people like the Jews, where as the Russians, at first anyways, were more or less indiscriminate about who they killed.

I read this great book about The Battle of Kursk. Many German soldiers had at that point begun to hear rumors about the concentration camps. One commented on the difference between the slaughter the Germans did compared to the Russians. He said something along the lines of "The Germans are perhaps more despicable because they consider themselves cultured men who might weep openly at a tragedy in an opera, but then order tens of thousands to death." Pretty horrific.

If anyone wants an inside look at the Soviet Union before, during, just after world war 2 and beyond under Stalin, here`s a fantastic documentary done by the History Channel. Its called Stalin Declassified. The whole Declassified series is fantastic. I whole heatedly recommend it. Ive seen this particular episode twice.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=S69s8YyJMlM&feature=channel_page

hughjass : LVL 1: VP 1: said:

hughjass

Hidden (Show Comment) -11 votes

280 days 21 hours ago...

^Give me a break, stop drinking the Kool-aid.

There`s a reason why in 2005 the leaders of more than 50 countries including the American President George W Bush, the French President, the German Chancellor, the Japanese PM, the Chinese General Secretary, the UN Secretary General, etc all came to Moscow Russia to commemorate the 60th anniversary of Russia`s victory over Nazi Germany.

"They killed more Jews then the Nazis did" - what the hell are you talking about, the Soviet Union contained the largest population of jews in the world. Hundreds of thousands of jews were saved because they fled deeper east as the Nazis advanced and occupied eastern europe. They didn`t kill people for being jews let alone kill more than 6 million jews. They helped establish communist regimes in these "satellite states" which contained the usual political repressions, they didn`t "kill many times what the Nazis killed" in these countries they liberated. German prisoners of war were treated a hell of a lot better by the Soviets than Soviet were treated by Germans, 3.5 million out of 5.5 million Soviet POWs died in German captivity due to starvation and disease, the treatment of them was horrendous. On the other hand, while the Soviet treatment of German POWs was worse than how the American and British treated them, most German POWs nevertheless survived Soviet captivity and were sent back to Germany.

Batman! : LVL 41: VP 4.9: said:

Batman!

Hidden (Show Comment) -8 votes

280 days 6 hours ago...

^Learn some history. Like I said the Russians killed INDISCRIMINATELY! Do you understand what that means?

Conservative estimates put the number of deaths under Stalin at about 20 million. Others think its well over 50 million. You`re right, Russia had a huge population of Jews. When you kill 50 million people and much of your population is Jewish, you get a lot of dead Jews. Over 6 million? Who can say for sure. It was certainly close if not equal or more.

http://users.erols.com/mwhite28/warstat1.htm#Stalin

Oh and by the way, Stalin hated Jews. As I said in my first post, he killed indiscriminately at first, but eventually he DID start targeting Jews. Stalin wanted to keep fighting at the end of WW2. The Soviets were suddenly the big boys on the block. They had tones of tanks and man power already spread through Europe. Stalin didn`t want the fighting to end. He started targeting Jews in the years following WW2 in order to provoke the west. He WANTED WW3. If you don`t think its true, here`s a whole wikipedia entry on his antisemitism and another on the "Doctors Plot" a conspiracy of Jewish doctors trying to assassinate top soviet officials. This plot was admittedly FABRICATED after Stalin`s death. Ironically his own doctor had been arrested possibly contributing to his own death.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Stalin%27s_antisemitism

http://en

.wikipedia.org/wiki/Doctors%27_plot

Now let me make this clear. I am not defending the Nazis. They are horrific murderers all the same. I just think people should realize that the Russians were on about the same level of evil. That being said, I think you pulled that information about Germans captured by Soviets straight out of your ass. Here`s a little ditty for your consideration:

"The combat in the Soviet Union, due to its apocalyptic nature, left both sides trying to prevent capture. Soviet and German units cut off from relief would fight to the death. Friedrich von Paulus’ Sixth Army took 85% casualties before surrendering at Stalingrad. Capture was so feared many choose death.

The conditions German POWs endured on the Eastern Front are beyond description. Shipped to separate camps in Siberia and elsewhere in the western Soviet Union, the German POWs were subjected to aggressive reeducation in communist ideology, as well as frequent beatings, torture, and execution. Food was always scarce.

The result was a horrific rate of death among German POWs. Out of the 90,000 Germans who marched into Soviet captivity at Stalingrad, only 5,000 returned from Russia. Most German POWs were held for ten years after the war."

http://www.worldwar2database.com/html/germanpow.htm

VVVV

Batman! : LVL 41: VP 4.9: said:

Batman!

-7 votes NegativePositive

280 days 3 hours ago...

^^^^
But just to reiterate so we`re clear: I am taking no defensive position here. I`m not saying the Nazis were good. I`m not in any way defending anyone or their actions. I`m simply saying look at what happened to a huge part of the world after these "heroic" Russians defeated the Nazis and "Liberated" these European nations. The numbers don`t lie. As far as sheer statistics are concerned, Hitler was number 3 on the list of mass murderers. Behind Mao at 1 and Stalin at 2. Who knows, if Pol Pot had had a larger country under his control he might have been up there as well. He was the winner as far as percentage of the populations exterminated. He killed about 26% of the population of Cambodia.

hughjass : LVL 1: VP 1: said:

hughjass

Hidden (Show Comment) -13 votes

279 days 22 hours ago...

This link http://users.erols.com/mwhite28/warstat1.htm#Stalin you provided does not say anything about the number of Jews "murdered" by Stalin, it only says the number of jews murdered by Hitler.
You still haven`t provided any source that supports your ridiculous assertion. You seem to be relying on your own "if you kill a lot of people you must get a lot of dead jews" theory rather than any actual sources or statistics.

You`re just writing a lot of narrative that is not backed up by actual statistics, events, dates.

"Out of the 90,000 Germans who marched into Soviet captivity at Stalingrad, only 5,000 returned from Russia. Most German POWs were held for ten years after the war."

http://www.worldwar2database.com/html/germanpow.htm"

OMG yes the *Stalingrad* German POW survival rate was this bad, this is a well known fact, but that rate was not the norm for German POWs taken by the Soviets, your knowledge about this is not very deep is it.

The Soviet Union took 3,300,000 German POWs and out of these only 374,000 died. Source: Rudiger Overmans, Deutsche militärische Verluste im Zweiten Weltkrieg. Oldenbourg 2000. ISBN 3-486-56531-1 This is compared to to 5.7 million Soviet POWs taken by the Germans and 3.5 million dying., Richard Overy The Dictators: Hitler`s Germany and Stalin`s Russia (2004), ISBN 0-7139-9309-X
That`s a 10% versus 60% death rate. This shows that the Soviets were rather merciful considering the 18 million Soviet civilians the Germans killed and the atrocities they committed on Soviet civilians and POWs.

As I pointed out, your opinion about equating Soviets with the Nazis is on the fringe of the mainstream, there`s a reason why in 2005 the leaders of more than 50 countries including the American President George W Bush, the French President, the German Chancellor, the Japanese PM, the Chinese General Secretary, the UN Secretary General, etc all came to Moscow Russia to commemorate the 60th anniversary of Russia`s victory over Nazi Germany, they wouldn`t be doing that if they considered the Soviets to be "just as bad, just as evil as the Nazis if not more so" or anywhere even close to it, like it or not.

Batman! : LVL 41: VP 4.9: said:

Batman!

Hidden (Show Comment) -8 votes

279 days 3 hours ago...

They were there to celebrate their triumph over the Nazis. They were not there to celebrate the subsequent 50 years of political murder and forced slavery which took about 50 million lives. If the Soviet Union still existed, do you think all those leaders would have been so willing? They didn`t even show up to the Moscow Olympics. That`s like claiming the Nazis did no wrong because the whole world showed up to the World Cup in Berlin. Ah no, different establishment, different government, different country all together.

That number, 50 million, is its self highly debated. The Russians weren`t exactly taking a tally of the dead let alone what religion they belonged to.

This link: http://users.erols.com/mwhite28/warstat1.htm#Stalin

I said right above it, just look up, that I wasn`t sure of the number of Jews who died under communism. Obviously if the link had that information I would have said so. The real number probably doesn`t exist. However, the Jews had no protected status. The state was indifferent. They killed Jews just like anyone else. That being said, I don`t need the exact numbers. 50 million dead, largest population of Jews in the world according to you... What more needs to be said?

As far as the POWs are concerned, who really gives a piss? You brought that up and I made a counter point, however it doesn`t really have anything to do with what we were talking about.

The bottom line is, perhaps they didn`t kill as many Jews as Hitler(I admit I could be mistaken on that point, as I said, the stats don`t seem to exist) but they still killed a heck of a lot. Their antisemitic policies and targeting of Jews for political murder and imprisonment, plus the fact that their body count was about 5 times that of the Nazis in my books, makes them just as bad, if not worse. After all, why is a Jewish death worse then a non-Jewish death? 50 million is still a lot more then 11 million. I agree, the targeting of specific peoples for genocide is horrific and disturbing, but the mindless slaughter of the mechanism they called communism cost a lot more lives in the end.

Onisama : LVL 34: VP 4.2: said:

Onisama

4 votes NegativePositive

277 days 17 hours ago...

^ You`ve just ruined my image of Batman!
Delete yourself!

Fucking posting essays for shit reasons.
What`s done is done. Live with it.

(btw gj for the find ShapeSphere 5/5)

s3r4ph : LVL 40: VP 4.8: said:

s3r4ph

18 votes NegativePositive

275 days 2 hours ago...

wow I`m definately not reading all that shit, nice post 5/5

Nic0demus : LVL 36: VP 4.4: said:

Nic0demus

-6 votes NegativePositive

275 days 2 hours ago...

^^^ To all above
The way the west sees WW2 is very different than what actually happened and people need to be made aware of it.

The only people found guilty at the end of the war, at nuremburg were nazis and only nazis. The soviets never had to account to anyone for their actions and they were just as horrible as the Nazis. Some could say WW2 was a battle between two gangsters.

kolobok007 : LVL 34: VP 4.2: said:

kolobok007

0 votes NegativePositive

275 days 2 hours ago...

I`m not sure why hughjass is getting voted down he has all his facts right. While batman just makes shit up, seriously dude if you don`t know what you are talking about shut the fuck up.

TM374 : LVL 31: VP 4: said:

TM374

-2 votes NegativePositive

275 days 1 hour ago...

fat hughjass your so nieve the Russians kill ruthlessly and hide the bodies in mass graves which nobody knows about their whereabouts. To this day they won`t admit to it and sending people to Siberia to die is about the same as a concentration camp, and oh yeah coming from Poland the deprivation of Communists of all forms of luxury in life is amazing treatment then that of the germans even though Russians went on with their bullshit for idk a good 50 years. Russians killed millions not thousands millions of their own, polish and all the military officers and generals of the satelite states but u know better because u listen to good all american and internet sources verses people who lived it you must be right. p.s. if u poke fun at my grammar its bc u can`t find anything to actually debate and our an idiot bc i dont give a fuck to prove you wrong that im gonna proof read this bc you know better anyway

antnaz : LVL 20: VP 2.9: said:

antnaz

12 votes NegativePositive

275 days 1 hour ago...

lol @ "watch this soldier - a sniper gets him"

Neferati : LVL 41: VP 4.9: said:

Neferati

1 votes NegativePositive

275 days 1 hour ago...

Batman you`re a dumbass. Ofcourse Russians killed germans indiscriminately, you have no fucking idea what happened to the russians during ww2. Its called fucking revenge dipshit. An eye for an eye.

BurstAero : LVL 42: VP 5: said:

BurstAero

-1 votes NegativePositive

275 days ago...

The point is: Fuck the krauts

dopefiend : LVL 21: VP 3: said:

dopefiend

7 votes NegativePositive

274 days 23 hours ago...

No, the point is learn from the past, and never let this happen again.

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