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Does The Brain Create Consciousness?

An interview with Dr. Hameroff regarding the aspects of quantum physics and consciousness.

  • samik83
  • posted by samik83
  • Date 4/4/2008 2:33:05 PM
  • Views: 2538
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15 Comments

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grae : LVL 36: VP 4.4: said:

grae

1 votes NegativePositive

114 days 1 hour ago...

Have a quick read about this guy before taking what he says on face value as hard science: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Stuart_Hameroff

He`s faced a lot of criticism - and as with some other recent "science" videos, he`s a proponent of some fringe theories that don`t represent the mainstream.

A quote from his Wiki page "Dr. Hameroff appeared as himself in the documentary film What t?e ?$*! Do ?S (k)pow!? (2004). He also participated in the first Beyond Belief conference, where his theories were sharply criticized by Lawrence Krauss, among others.". The What the beep do we know film has faced strong and wide criticism for passing off psuedoscience as science.

More real science docos, less fringe whack job stuff please.

Skiba : LVL 36: VP 4.4: said:

Skiba

14 votes NegativePositive

114 days ago...

Even if this guy has some conteversial ideas, not supported by the mainstream He sets forward some good questions to think about FOR YOU SELF...

Such as how can the brain create consciousness if it is only computation? How can trillions of on/off switches create consciousness, that`s nothing more than a gigantic calculator that can only compute but not experience. What experiences the brain functions, thoughts and emotions? The brain itself? Computation experiencing computation?

If you think of the brain in contrast to AI and how you would build such a device that was conscious(not just computation) it raises some mind boggling questions. How can you build something that experiences as you do and not just act like it was experiencing?

grae : LVL 36: VP 4.4: said:

grae

2 votes NegativePositive

113 days 22 hours ago...

^ There are some good questions indeed. Just some questionable conclusions.

And I`m not saying it`s wrong - I`m just letting people know that it`s potentially not within mainstream scientific opinion. Even though it`s a little killjoy - the peer review process is an important step in scientific method - it`s what got us to where we are today.

As you said here: http://www.spikedhumor.com/Article.aspx?id=146062&#cid-1434484 you`re a proponent of consciousness causes collapse - which is fine. It`s just not considered hard science at this stage.

Omnicron.4735 : LVL 34: VP 4.2: said:

Omnicron.4735

9 votes NegativePositive

113 days 22 hours ago...

@grae
>it`s just not considered hard science at this stage.
True.
But I would hesitate calling this man "a wack job".
A lot of scientists were ridiculed for thinking that was considered (at the time) irrational. An example off the top of my head would be Marconi the father of the radio. His friends and family threatened him with institutionalization for saying that he could send messages on "the ether" using a machine.
How far would todays world be set back if we had allowed such limited thinking to keep men like Marconi from realizing their dream?

Sometimes we have to put aside the "knee jerk" reaction of initial disbelieve and judgment and see, for our selves, what is the truth.
It’s called "keeping an open mind".

I think the late Arthur C Clark put it best..

Clarke`s Law of Revolutionary Ideas:
Every revolutionary idea — in science, politics, art, or whatever — seems to evoke three stages of reaction. They may be summed up by the phrases:
(1) "It`s completely impossible — don`t waste my time";
(2) "It`s possible, but it`s not worth doing";
(3) "I said it was a good idea all along."

The Promise of Space (1968);
This and similar statements attributed to Mahatma Gandhi may ultimately be derived from a statement attibuted to Arthur Schopenhauer:
All truth passes through three stages.
First it is ridiculed.
Second it is violently opposed.
And third it is accepted as self-evident.
As quoted in Seeds of Peace : A Catalogue of Quotations (1986) by Jeanne Larson, Madge Micheels-Cyrus, p. 244

Skiba : LVL 36: VP 4.4: said:

Skiba

2 votes NegativePositive

113 days 20 hours ago...

^^never heard of Clarks law, but those are my thoughts exactly.

Any revolutional idea starts this way, the mainstream never accepts it first hand. So all we can do is look it with an open mind and not dismiss it at first hand. Theres nothing too radical about this considering that nobody even knows why or how this quantum weirdenss happens. We only know it does happen.

grae : LVL 36: VP 4.4: said:

grae

0 votes NegativePositive

113 days 11 hours ago...

@Omnicron.4735 - I worded my last line poorly. I didn`t mean this guy was a whack job - I was trying to suggest that we try not to flood spiked with "whack job" psuedoscience videos and keep to stuff which we know is accepted theory right now.

I could have said it better.

I definitely wasn`t calling Hammeroff a whack job - sources indicate he`s done some positive and clever stuff. I think it`s because I`m still a little embarassed that the quantum slit experiment video from the What The Bleep video wasn`t on the level and this guy`s involved in that line of thinking. I pasted that video around to a bunch friends and we all went "ooo, just by looking at the particle you change it", only to find out we`d been sold fringe/psuedoscience in science packaging. I had to go and contact all of the people I sent it to to tell them that consciouness causes collapse wasn`t mainstream science and I`d unwittingly led then astray.

Hameroff`s views could end up to be on the right track one day - as you say - history is filled with scientists who made bold and fringe statements which later turned out to be true strokes of genius that changed the world as we know it. It`s also full of scientists who were completely wrong, too. Those don`t tend to register as much, maybe out of selection bias. Clarke`s law rings true in the broad sense - but it`s worth noting that out of all our pursuitsm science is the first to admit it wasn`t correct when presented with evidence, and changes its views accordingly. I`d say Clarke`s law more appropriately describes the realms of art, religion, and politics than it does scientific method.

And that may just be the biggest post I ever made on spiked. We need more science videos - but good ones that teach us stuff - not ones that make us look stupid in front of our friends :D

stbasdf : LVL 36: VP 4.4: said:

stbasdf

-6 votes NegativePositive

106 days 17 hours ago...

:(

season 4 of bsg starts today! :)

Riatsu : LVL 1: VP 1: said:

Riatsu

3 votes NegativePositive

106 days 16 hours ago...

idk about all them big comments but quantum is a smart word.

rybear4513 : LVL 24: VP 3.3: said:

rybear4513

9 votes NegativePositive

106 days 16 hours ago...

i love how everyone on spikedhumor seems to think theyre quantum physic experts

amnesiac : LVL 33: VP 4.2: said:

amnesiac

2 votes NegativePositive

106 days 16 hours ago...

Great vid. Sucks that it cut short, though.

I always believe consciousness is the illusion of the rapid flux of our 5 senses "illuminating" one after the other.

A great analogy is a film strip passing through a projector. An actual movie appears to be smooth and flowing, but in reality it is a series of still images passing by at a very fast rate creating the illusion of a movie.

Skiba : LVL 37: VP 4.5: said:

Skiba

3 votes NegativePositive

106 days 15 hours ago...

^^
That again does not explain what experiences those film strips.

For example my PC can take in huge amounts of information, and it can compute it, but theres no experience of that info. you can`t program it to experience no matter what computing power it has or what AI programs it runs ...it can only process information, not experince it.

Our brains may create these pictures, feeling and thought, but that something we call consciousness, makes it possible to experience them.

amnesiac : LVL 33: VP 4.2: said:

amnesiac

1 votes NegativePositive

106 days 15 hours ago...

define experience.

To me experience just means the sensation of either: seeing , hearing, smell, taste, or touch, combined with our memories of past experiences that tell us the details of that "thing".

I SEE a fly on the wall. My memories tell me its an insect, etc, etc. and thats it.

Without our 5 senses we would have no concept of existence. Nothing.

Imagine being born absent from your 5 senses. Could you even produce a thought? Our senses define the external world, and our memories tell us what we`ve felt in the past. Every decision we make in life is based on our past memories, and to some extent, instinct (genetics from natural selection).

Skiba : LVL 37: VP 4.5: said:

Skiba

0 votes NegativePositive

106 days 14 hours ago...

I really can`t define experience. Thats the whole point of the mystery of consciousness. But we all know what it is to experience.

"To me experience just means the sensation of either: seeing , hearing, smell, taste, or touch, combined with our memories of past experiences"

Yes, We can sum up all this to brain activity. Trillion of neurons going on and off. There are possibly millions of switches inside these neurons as this guy suggests, but in the end we come to the same conclution. Nothing more than on/off swithes. Why should many on/off switches create experience of anything? That would mean were robots, that have no experience, only REACTION. There would be "nobody" seeing what happens in the mind. The body and mind would just do what it does like a robot, nobody there only computing.

Don`t know if this makes any sense. :) Do you see where im getting at this?

"Imagine being born absent from your 5 senses. Could you even produce a thought?"

I would still be aware whats happening in my head. If theres anything happening that is, b/c of the lack of stimulus. But if there was something I would be aware of it. Even if my mind was completely empty and silent then I would be aware of tha emptyness and silence.

amnesiac : LVL 33: VP 4.2: said:

amnesiac

1 votes NegativePositive

106 days 12 hours ago...

"Why should many on/off switches create experience of anything? That would mean were robots, that have no experience, only REACTION. There would be "nobody" seeing what happens in the mind. The body and mind would just do what it does like a robot, nobody there only computing."

And maybe we are. We`re just very evolved and intelligent robots. Ones that are so advanced that we can ask these questions. People dont want to admit to that because then we wouldnt be "unique", we would just be predictable systems, like computers/robots, and thats a scary thought for most people.

"I would still be aware whats happening in my head. If theres anything happening that is, b/c of the lack of stimulus. But if there was something I would be aware of it. Even if my mind was completely empty and silent then I would be aware of tha emptyness and silence. "

Youre not being objective here. I dont see how you could be "aware of something" if there is no sense to tell you that there is "something". Everything, absolutely everything we feel/think is based on one of our 5 senses telling us of its presence. Name me something that isnt.

Explain to me what being "aware of the emptyness and silence" means exactly. You would have no thoughts. How can you even know what "emptyness" is?

PYRO UA : LVL 8: VP 1.7: said:

PYRO UA

3 votes NegativePositive

106 days 11 hours ago...

man this guy is boring as hell, you want a good guy on the subject of Consciousnes, go to TED.com, and look up a guy named DAn Dennett, that guy knows what hes talking about, this guy sounds like hes full of shit.

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