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The Spartans (2/3)

Part Two. Documentary about the Spartans. This Dorian Greek military city-state existed from the 11th century BC to 371 BC. It is famed for its ruthless ideals, discipline, and formidable history.

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9 Comments

Current View: 15 / Show all Comments

kovert88 : LVL 9: VP 1.8: said:

kovert88

-4 votes NegativePositive

875 days 18 hours ago...

300

klavlav : LVL 25: VP 3.4: said:

klavlav

5 votes NegativePositive

875 days 17 hours ago...

Something is awkwardly edited out at about 1:12, right after the young warrior joins a mess. Do you know what was deleted?

I know the Spartans had a strong homosexual/pederastic tradition. Young warriors typically joined the mess of their older lovers/mentors. Too, once they reached adulthood, Spartan men often took boys as lovers and trainees.

I haven`t seen the original, unedited version of this vid, but I`m guessing whatever was clipped had to do with that.

Speaking of this, one of the armies to hold the distinction of defeating the Spartans was the well-known Band of Theban lovers; the army that consisted of pairs of homosexual warrior lovers.

When will they make a movie about that?

Edit: Yes, I just found an "intact" version of this vid at the library (a pretty decent, two-disc set that includes segments on the Samurai, Vikings, Zulus, as well as the Spartans.

Sure enough, the part that was edited out had to do with mess-mates being lovers.

Come to think of it, I believe I saw the edited, online version on YouTube some time ago. When I followed that poster`s links, it took me to some fascist, white-supremecist stuff. No wonder they`d edit out the queer stuff...

ShapeSphere : LVL 44: VP 5: said:

ShapeSphere

0 votes NegativePositive

875 days 16 hours ago...

I don`t know what was deleted. If anything was. I got this from YouTube. It`s not something that particularly bothers me. This "edited" version as you like to call it, is better for its brevity and focus on the main events.

I understand your post and many others like it, but I sometimes think we are applying our 21st century beliefs (and cynicism) to ancient societies. Just because a bunch of guys hung out together, doesn`t mean they are all homosexual. They were an army for heaven`s sake. They have to train together and develop teamwork.

Think of the future. In the 40th century will people view the U.S. Marines or elite British army units as homosexual?

klavlav : LVL 25: VP 3.4: said:

klavlav

1 votes NegativePositive

875 days 15 hours ago...

Actually it`s just the opposite; modern beliefs *opposed* to homosexuality were responsible for much of the evidence about Greek pederasty being cynically suppressed. Only relatively recently has that documentation been widely available and discussed (prior to that it was the "dirty little secret" of classics scholars who santitised the truth and skipped over passages in ancient texts that detailed "Greek love").

And in the future, the truth about just how much homosexuality is rampant in the supposedly "straight" armed services will probably come to light. Those stories are already out there, like the news about the dozens of US military Arabic-language specialists who were discharged for being gay. I guess it`s more important to miltary morale for people to die from lack of intelligence than to possibly be saved by "queers".

They could learn a thing or two from the Sacred Band of Thebes.

Loops101 : LVL 19: VP 2.8: said:

Loops101

-2 votes NegativePositive

875 days 4 hours ago...

is it me or is it in the movie their shield looks bigger and harder?

klavlav : LVL 25: VP 3.4: said:

klavlav

0 votes NegativePositive

874 days 22 hours ago...

Not quite sure what you mean by "unproven myths". Homo-sociability/homosexuality was one of the key organising principles of Greek society until Christianity stamped it out. That is a fact. It was even enshrined in some of the first constitutions by the likes of Solon and Lycurgus.

The Greeks weren`t "gay", however. Gay is a 20th century, modern, Western invention. What the Greeks were is far more nuanced and interesting (and actually far more indicative of the kind of homosexuality you find in the ancient world).

The fact remains, though (and it is hardly a myth nor some arcane, esoteric trivia) that the way Greeks approached sexuality had a major impact of every aspect of their lives; from religion, art, language, sport and the military to politics and education - for centuries. It is difficult to understand for those who have been raised in a Judeo-Christian culture where such things have been demonised for thousands of years. Which is all the more reason such facts need to be brought to light.

yogo : LVL 12: VP 2.1: said:

yogo

1 votes NegativePositive

874 days 12 hours ago...

spartan pedestry wasn`t what we`d call homosexuality, it was closer to a mentorship. every spartan boy would have to find a man to take care of them and take them under their wing, there wasn`t actually anything sexual between them. the men would help the boys to be strong and pass on the wisdom they had learned in battle. homosexuality in ancient greece wasn`t the same as modern day homosexuality, it was simply believed that a woman was a lesser person than a man so the men had wives to give them children and male lovers to have the actual relationship with. (this obviously can`t be said for every ancient greek, but it was the trend)

ShapeSphere : LVL 45: VP 5: said:

ShapeSphere

2 votes NegativePositive

868 days 16 hours ago...

Hi Klavlav. Yes, I was online and noticed you deleting and editing the messages. Fair enough.

I guess I was a bit stubborn, direct, and sarcastic at times. But I`m like that in real life as well. :O)

I was only trying to reply to your legitimate and initial question. I didn`t edit the video and that I was uncertain about a lot of the facts. I do like to read, but am not the expert in one field.

I was also very rude to you and your credentials, and apologise for being a complete c**t. You know how it is with the internet...

Sorry if I offended you.

klavlav : LVL 25: VP 3.4: said:

klavlav

1 votes NegativePositive

868 days 15 hours ago...

Fair enough, then.

All`s fair in love, war, and the internet, I guess.

Cheers.

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